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Thread: Open Diff or LSD?

  1. #21
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    So...um...has anyone heard if an LSD is in the works? Anyone pulled a trans apart and taken a look at the diff or know if it's similar to anything else that may crossover? For what it's worth I had my Veloster Turbo at the track Friday (Willow Springs---the big track) and only had a small issue with wheel spin in turn 4 (with the traction control off)---I think if I'd been at the smaller track (Streets of Willow course) or an autocross the wheel spin/lower speed corners would have been more of an issue. Sticky tires and better spring rates would have certainly helped with it, but eventually an LSD will be a nice upgrade for someone who regularly tracks/races the car...

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Aeroscout977's Avatar
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    Lets get one thing straight. No one is ever DDing a car that "has 350whp". Horsepower is an output not something you have. You're DDing a car with the potential to produce 350WHP. At no point will you be legally producing said power. So the arguments for suspension work, wheels, and LSD are all together pointless regarding daily drivers.

    An LSD on daily drivers will help you get going form the stopped position in daily driving commutes. They have no real benefit on public roads while already moving in slick conditions. In fact it's actually safer to have no LSD in slippery conditions while moving.

    When it comes to the track both argument hold merit. However which one is the best bang for your buck? That's the question to ask.
    elecblue06 likes this.
    Mike

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeroscout977 View Post
    Lets get one thing straight. No one is ever DDing a car that "has 350whp". Horsepower is an output not something you have. You're DDing a car with the potential to produce 350WHP. At no point will you be legally producing said power. So the arguments for suspension work, wheels, and LSD are all together pointless regarding daily drivers.

    An LSD on daily drivers will help you get going form the stopped position in daily driving commutes. They have no real benefit on public roads while already moving in slick conditions. In fact it's actually safer to have no LSD in slippery conditions while moving.

    When it comes to the track both argument hold merit. However which one is the best bang for your buck? That's the question to ask.
    Agreed---I haven't been able to find a diff yet and I'd bet there's something out there that'll work/is close. I sell quaife and KAAZ at the shop and we actually use a KIA trans in our Mazda/Ford Escort roadrace cars---they are nearly identical except for the axle spline count. I'm new to the car and found this thread in my search's...Anyone have any knowledge about the trans/finding a diff?

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeroscout977 View Post
    Lets get one thing straight. No one is ever DDing a car that "has 350whp". Horsepower is an output not something you have. You're DDing a car with the potential to produce 350WHP. At no point will you be legally producing said power. So the arguments for suspension work, wheels, and LSD are all together pointless regarding daily drivers.

    An LSD on daily drivers will help you get going form the stopped position in daily driving commutes. They have no real benefit on public roads while already moving in slick conditions. In fact it's actually safer to have no LSD in slippery conditions while moving.

    When it comes to the track both argument hold merit. However which one is the best bang for your buck? That's the question to ask.
    good point. this assumes people dont break the law lol but good point. I was using the 350 whp as a frame of reference because my car sees redline a good amount of times a week and the car produces much more then any veloster produces at this time on the forums. I never said I do it legally nor has any of my friends that dont have LSD's. HOWEVER it is the car I drive every day, and hell even my recent suspension upgrade has done worlds for the cars handling and traction.

    I would argue suspension/ tires would be a better bang for the buck as not only do they promote traction but they also change other dynamics of the car, rather then and LSD really only does one thing and are usually expensive to buy ( if you're getting a true lsd and not a phantom grip or something of that nature) and just as expensive if not MORE expensive to get installed.
    Last edited by elecblue06; 10-25-2012 at 11:27 AM.

  6. #25
    Senior Member Aeroscout977's Avatar
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    Which I could agree with. Especially in drag racing situations. Keep equal traction to both wheels and having an LSD becomes useless. When it comes to road racing I'd push the other direction.
    Mike

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeroscout977 View Post
    Which I could agree with. Especially in drag racing situations. Keep equal traction to both wheels and having an LSD becomes useless. When it comes to road racing I'd push the other direction.
    yup which was my original point.. unless you're doing hard core autox proper tire and suspension will be significantly more helpful then a factory LSD, i mean an lsd helps when going around corners because you're lifting weigh off of one wheel due to body roll, minimize body roll increase traction helps things (not solves) but helps and considering for MOST people they wont hit a track outside of maybe a 1/4 mile from time to time. Personally I wouldnt pay the extra probably 2k for a factory LSD unless it came with a revised suspension and I dont mean to overhaul the rear end like people keep asking for added rear sway and different shocks/ springs would do it for me there are alot of cars that dont use a macpherson style strut rear end and stuff like people are asking for and handle better then a stock VT. and I doubt all of that could happen for 2k considering most quaife lsd run around 900-1500 out of the gate

  8. #27
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    sure suspension and tire mods can help without an LSD, but just think how much better it would be to have tires, suspension mods and an LSD.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tidybowl View Post
    sure suspension and tire mods can help without an LSD, but just think how much better it would be to have tires, suspension mods and an LSD.
    then the car will be 28-29k msrp and dealers will be charging low to mid 30s and no one would buy the car lol people will jsut say .. then i'll go with an evo/sti/gti

  10. #29
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    It's either you give all the performance parts, charge for performance and compete with other performance cars or you don't give performance parts, don't charge performance prices (relative to cars in more of a performance market) and compete in a lower (completely different) market, which is exactly what this car does.
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  11. #30
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    really in my opinion the suspension and tires are the biggest reason this thing doesnt compete with a GTI.. thats whats hurting 0-60, Idk what the gearing specs are but that could be hurting it too
    Last edited by elecblue06; 10-25-2012 at 04:36 PM.

  12. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by elecblue06 View Post
    really in my opinion the suspension and tires are the biggest reason this thing doesnt compete with a GTI.. thats whats hurting 0-60, Idk what the gearing specs are but that could be hurting it too
    I can answer that question. The slower 0-60 times compared with the Honda Civic SI and Scion FR-S become very obvious when the Scion FR-S engine is compared to the Hyundai Veloster Turbo engine. The numbers indicate the Scion FR-S is much faster, but look closer. The only way to get great numbers with the flat four engine is by revving to its ideal RPM and keeping it their between shifts. This is not a huge problem for drag racing or even depending on the track for handling purposes. The Hyundai Veloster Turbo has a much better daily driving engine because it produces good power at almost any RPM, but it loses some time during acceleration from zero. I could be wrong on this assumption, but I think the transmission is also geared more for fuel economy than racing especially with three gears less than 1 to 1. This allows for insane 40+mpg cruising during ideal conditions at the loss of acceleration. This is why the Scion FR-S will never compete with the fuel economy of the Veloster Turbo and the Veloster Turbo will never compete with FR-S acceleration times.

    What happens if the Veloster Turbo engine is placed in an FR-S and the transmission and differential was changed to take advantage for having power at any RPM?

  13. #32
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    Does anyone make an aftermarket LSD for the VT??

  14. #33
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    Not that I've been able to find---I talked to a couple diff manufacturers (OS GIKEN and KAAZ) at SEMA and they said they'd be interested if I got them a transmission---I spoke with a rep at Hyundai briefly and he said he'd look into getting me a trans---I'd be interested to know what other vehicle's the trans was used in---never know there might already be a diff available for another application...

  15. #34
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    I don't know how any self respecting car enthusiast can argue against the benefit of a LSD on a performance oriented car. The FR-S/BRZ puts down the same amount of power and less torque yet it has a Torsen LSD, which makes a big difference accelerating off the line and out of a corner. Boy the FR-S is a fun car to drive.

    Have you guy see the traction control light flashing when you accelerate? With a LSD, it won't happen as often. The very first day that I got my car, I went straight to the tire shop and put on summer performance tires. Even with the stickier Hankook Evo V12 I can have traction issue in the dry and often in the wet. There is no doubt in my mind that the VT will be a more enjoyable car to drive with a mechanical LSD.

    Honestly, I am very willing to pay for one. The problem is that the installation can cost a lot, and people generally are willing to pay X amount of dollar for Y amount of utility/benefit. So, it might not be a very profitable proposition for vendors to engineer a solution for the VT.

  16. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LGP_VT View Post
    I don't know how any self respecting car enthusiast can argue against the benefit of a LSD on a performance oriented car. The FR-S/BRZ puts down the same amount of power and less torque yet it has a Torsen LSD, which makes a big difference accelerating off the line and out of a corner. Boy the FR-S is a fun car to drive.

    Have you guy see the traction control light flashing when you accelerate? With a LSD, it won't happen as often. The very first day that I got my car, I went straight to the tire shop and put on summer performance tires. Even with the stickier Hankook Evo V12 I can have traction issue in the dry and often in the wet. There is no doubt in my mind that the VT will be a more enjoyable car to drive with a mechanical LSD.

    Honestly, I am very willing to pay for one. The problem is that the installation can cost a lot, and people generally are willing to pay X amount of dollar for Y amount of utility/benefit. So, it might not be a very profitable proposition for vendors to engineer a solution for the VT.

    oy vey man the brz has alot more things going for it then just the lsd.. yes an lsd helps, however they're EXTREMELY expensive usually like you said between parts and install, but a proper suspension/ tires will help out a huge amount and be more cost effective (this is what I've been saying) and if you're spinning tires even with the v12s i'm willing to bet that it has nothing to do with not a LSD, what is the temperature you're running those v12s in? is your car lowered?

    you probably shouldn't say "i don't know how any self respecting car enthusiast can argue against the benefits of an LSD"

    not to mention .. this car isn't a performance oriented car ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by elecblue06 View Post
    oy vey man the brz has alot more things going for it then just the lsd.. yes an lsd helps, however they're EXTREMELY expensive usually like you said between parts and install, but a proper suspension/ tires will help out a huge amount and be more cost effective (this is what I've been saying) and if you're spinning tires even with the v12s i'm willing to bet that it has nothing to do with not a LSD, what is the temperature you're running those v12s in? is your car lowered?

    you probably shouldn't say "i don't know how any self respecting car enthusiast can argue against the benefits of an LSD"

    not to mention .. this car isn't a performance oriented car ....
    My car has factory suspension and is not lowered. You can't deny the fact that LSD will help you make better use of available traction. Therefore to say that it's not gonna help is logically incorrect. By the way, I have had issue putting down power even on a warm summer day.

    Now, I am not interested in some pissing contest. You are entitled to your opinion, but to say that the VT is not a performance oriented model is like say the Focus ST is not a performance oriented model. What makes people opt for the VT over the NA V, I think performance has something to do with it.

  18. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by LGP_VT View Post
    My car has factory suspension and is not lowered. You can't deny the fact that LSD will help you make better use of available traction. Therefore to say that it's not gonna help is logically incorrect. By the way, I have had issue putting down power even on a warm summer day.

    Now, I am not interested in some pissing contest. You are entitled to your opinion, but to say that the VT is not a performance oriented model is like say the Focus ST is not a performance oriented model. What makes people opt for the VT over the NA V, I think performance has something to do with it.

    I didn't say it wasn't going to help, I said it's not the be all to end all like people think, and that tires + suspension will alleviate much of the issues while being significantly cheaper thus USUALLY being a better choice. and the VT isn't a performance car.. the ST is.. the MS3 is, the GTI is, the VT is speced to be a mpg ***** with a side of having a decent amount of get up and go, the car isn't winning any awards for acceleration, handling or braking. Performance has something to do with people going with the vt over the na v but that doesn't make it a performance car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elecblue06 View Post
    I didn't say it wasn't going to help, I said it's not the be all to end all like people think, and that tires + suspension will alleviate much of the issues while being significantly cheaper thus USUALLY being a better choice. and the VT isn't a performance car.. the ST is.. the MS3 is, the GTI is, the VT is speced to be a mpg ***** with a side of having a decent amount of get up and go, the car isn't winning any awards for acceleration, handling or braking. Performance has something to do with people going with the vt over the na v but that doesn't make it a performance car.
    Promised myself I wouldn't go there, but what the heck. Sir, can you please elaborate on why the GTi is a performance car and the VT is not. They are in direct competition and at the end it was a toss up for me between the two.

    By the way I never used the term "performance car" to describe the VT, I said it's performance oriented. Which is exactly what a hot hatch is supposed to be.

  20. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by LGP_VT View Post
    Promised myself I wouldn't go there, but what the heck. Sir, can you please elaborate on why the GTi is a performance car and the VT is not. They are in direct competition and at the end it was a toss up for me between the two.

    By the way I never used the term "performance car" to describe the VT, I said it's performance oriented. Which is exactly what a hot hatch is supposed to be.
    the vt isn't meant to be a hot hatch, hyundai has never said they meant it to be, they've actually said the opposite. The suspension and tires are definitely a big part of why it's not a hot hatch, the car is built to be comfortable to appeal to more people, read turbosocks' "after 2200 miles, why this car isn't a hot hatch" thread. the power of the VT just makes it more fun to drive, by your idea of performance oriented the new camry would be a performance oriented car since it's quicker in a straight line than the VT. It's not that this car is far away from being a hot hatch, it would only take a few changes to put it up there. Hyundai as a brand is m ore luxury oriented then performance

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    Quote Originally Posted by elecblue06 View Post
    the vt isn't meant to be a hot hatch, hyundai has never said they meant it to be, they've actually said the opposite. The suspension and tires are definitely a big part of why it's not a hot hatch, the car is built to be comfortable to appeal to more people, read turbosocks' "after 2200 miles, why this car isn't a hot hatch" thread. the power of the VT just makes it more fun to drive, by your idea of performance oriented the new camry would be a performance oriented car since it's quicker in a straight line than the VT. It's not that this car is far away from being a hot hatch, it would only take a few changes to put it up there. Hyundai as a brand is m ore luxury oriented then performance
    At the end of the day, I honestly believe that most people would consider the VT as a hot hatch. Most people would probably think that Scarlett J is hot, too. But if you don't think that's the case, you are entitled to your opinion. Won't change what the rest of the general public thinks of her.

    Even with summer only performance tires, I am having problem putting power down in first and second gear. I believe that the engine is running only 50% and 80% boost respectively in these two gears With an LSD, too. Given the choice between 40 more HP and a good LSD on the VT. I will take the LSD all day long.

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