Wanted to put this argument to rest once and for all!

[Aintgonnahappn]

Because I said I would post Hyundai's classification in the LSD thread and I want to put this argument to bed for good! I figured why not make it its own thread!

WHAT HYUNDAI HAS LABELED THE VELOSTER TURBO


Now kids lets take a close look at this advertisement. First is it an advertisement:



Yep, and what are we advertising Hyundai?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!



Hmmm upon closer inspection, I believe that says hot hatch. Lets see, h-o-t h-a-t-c-h, ummm yes after sounding it out definitely hot hatch. Now even though they say it I know some of you are gonna defend the car by saying, well that doesn't mean its suppose to be in the same league as a GTI in performance, its "hot" hatch. Just advertising lingo, no direct comparisons. Lets look a little deeper.......



In just one side of the the advertisement upon closer inspection here is the car list:
1) VW GTI
2) Mini Cooper S Clubman
3) Civic Si

In retrospect I see what you mean. Hyundai in no shape or form meant for this to be a hot hatch.....they were aiming economy car. They also are not in direct competition with the GTI, Civic Si, Mini Cooper S Clubman, or any other car that would remotely resemble a hot hatch. So I guess I was wrong.

There argument put to rest, all of those in favor of this car being intended to be an economy car and not a hot hatch (as intended by Hyundai) I want you to do something for me. Take your hand and place it in front of you face so that the palm is facing you. Now quickly bring you hand to your forehead (not too quickly because well, look I know your slow but you get the idea).

If you would like I can grab any number of advertisements if I look hard enough. This is the one in the most recent Motor Trend mag that I have, but all of their advertisements are similar. Hyundai clearly has classified this car, and it is a hot hatch and in direct competition with the cars mentioned above. The only reason I am driving the point, and if any of you out there work for Hyundai, is that they really missed the mark here. I have money in hand, just give me what you advertise and we are good, or at least the option to purchase what you advertise. Ill spend a couple extra k for the option of a decent suspension, bigger brakes, and an LSD. The tuning I can get done on my own, thank you!

[Bobster]

I'm not sure I get your point...the NA-V is definitely a fun, practical economy car. Hyundai more than hit that mark. The Turbo is a "hotter" version and still a hatchback so the ad ain't lyin'. Many print and online articles have already compared the Turbo with the GTI, Cooper and Si among others...so Hyundai didn't start that argument. Sure, a more "sophisticated" Turbo will come in time and when it does there will be a premium...probably about another 3 large. So let's review: 201hp, great acceleration, damn fine road manners, awesome practicality, stunning looks, loaded with toys and goodies and all for well under $30k. You have a Genesis Coupe R-Spec now so it sounds like you already have what you want...or do you?

[dianebrat]

tip, it's almost impossible to make a point when your subject line has nothing in it regarding the actual content of your post.



Hyundai can call it a pony in an ad, that doesn't make it a pony.

[GreyGhost12]

Without getting trampled here... A "hot hatch" is a "special vehicle" that stands out from the rest and will ALWAYS include LSD as well as other implements for a much more than average spirited drive.

This is one reason why when members post up and say "my mods" and I have to shake my head at them because they are only doing tint, wheels, lights, etc... I'm sorry but to me (and any true grassroots car guy) a "mod" is something performed to gain more performance of the drive, not of the "looks". Springs, shocks, CAI, exhaust, cams, portwork, tuning, etc... Now THESE are mods.

People use the wrong terms to indicate something else and suddenly these terms become industry standard phrases. Wrong again.

While they may be trying to market the VT as a "hot hatch", it simply is NOT. Maybe if there becomes an "R-Spec" and they include LSD, significantly more power, better suspension, bigger brakes, etc, then it may be classified as a what the industry calls a "hot hatch".

It is clear to me Hyundai missed the mark here with it's over inflated claims and wording. Similarly to their over inflated claims on mpg across their vehicle line-up.

Now before anyone thinks I'm on a Hyundai bash let me clarify that I am not. It would simply be nice for everyone to be on the same page when it comes to the real meaning and terminology of what is and what is not reality.

I have a 2012 NAV and I've been pleased with it this past year of ownership. I'm personally waiting to see if they will release a rumored R-spec of the V. If so, it is highly likely this MAY be an actual "hot hatch".

[vtlover67]

...

Hyundai can call it a pony in an ad, that doesn't make it a pony.

I am with you here. You know what they say about paper! It can take anything you give it! (This is a bad translation from Spanish OK, but you get the idea.)

As to this car being a "hot hatch", who cares? I sure don't. I love the car just the way it is. I am a fan of the GTI and the Mini, but my VT is much better, IMHO.

[elecblue06]

why the veloster wasn't made to be a hot hatch

[velogangster]

I agree with the OP the car has to be a hot hatch. its a hatchback. its got a turbo, bigger brakes and a lip kit. and at 200hp it puts in in direct competition with civic si and vw gti. Unfortunately hyundai has little to no experience in that departement hences the poor performances. I guess the engineers thought a turbo and bigger brakes where enough but they forgot the most important thing: HANDLING! (no lsd? all season tires?? WTF!! ) I have a base NA-V and was quite pleased with the way it handled when I bought it because I was comparing with similar priced smallsize cars

on the good side the VT has way better fuel milage then other hot hatches and with gas prices today. thats a BIG advantage

what I think...

[Aintgonnahappn]

My whole point is every thread I have interest in the argument of the majority of the people that don't understand the complaint ends up coming down to that Hyundai's intent for the car was not a hot hatch. Everytime I post that they were originally aiming for that market, I get and I quote "Hyundai has never said that." In reality they have said it over and over and over. Hyundais intent was the hot hatch market, and when people complain about no LSD, a suspect suspension, and other items on the car, stepping in and saying the car was not intended to be so is absolutely not true. It is like they feel obligated to defend the car, claiming the car is "still a great car". Yes the car is decent, but the minute you try to get into it, pull, or canyon carve the car is skittish at best and when compared to the GTI, ST, MS3, Mini Cooper S (in the same market category that Hyundai was aiming) it becomes a very bad car in comparison.

Now does the intention mean it actually is one, no. The car was intended to be a hot hatch and compete in that market, attracting a piece of the fastest growing sports segment in the auto industry. But Hyundai missed the mark.

I just get tired of the, "but this car was not intended to be that" argument, when in reality it was!AS FOR THE NA V COMMENT, this is not in the NA V section, in no way shape or form would I consider that car sporty minus the looks. That comment is like a rabbit driver walking in on a GTI conversation and going, my car looks sporty but isn't a hot hatch. No your car is an attractive people mover.............and not even the subject of the conversation!

TO GREY GHOST - Thank you, you made my point much more elegantly than I did! And as far as power, I can get the car to go (a little elbow grease and the want to, a bigger turbo, and it will go)....I just need something to start with. Hyundai's version of R-Spec is something else I had an issue with, but I got one anyhow *dunno*. I just ended up giving in and buying the car, even though I think they could have done more to give it a real reason for have the R-Spec label.

[likenedthus]

I feel like the assertion that the Veloster was not intended (by Hyundai) to be a "hot hatch" started with the NAV and has now been superimposed on the VT, for the most part. I can see why Hyundai would want the VT to be looked at as uniquely comparable to other hot hatches, since there are no substantive differences between it and the NAV otherwise. In the end, however, I think Hyundai ended up with a hatch that was somewhere in between the NAV and the other "true" hot hatches on the road.

[blackjack]

We talk about comparisons for "hot Hatch" variants but someone omitted the Megane RS 250/265.
Also no mention of the current overrated Toyota 86 or BRZ.
Not sure what the pricing is like in the USA or elsewhere but for a quality "sports hatch" you are looking at $50k plus fully featured. thats almost $15k more than what a VT would set you back. Imaging spending half ot that on your V
IMO Hyundai have put out a model that offers the best of a number or worlds. It provides flexibility of a people mover, daily commute lots of toys to keep you occupied when parked but with the Turbo a little bit of kick to have fun.
Sure if an R spec comes out it will be a truly awesome car as it not only has the looks and style but will also hopefully include suicidal performance.
Years ago Holden (Chevrolet) introduced a small practical car called a Torana.
They then introduced the XU1 not many around now because most got wrapped around poles but in its day it was a true smaller performance car.

The NAV was a nice looking quirly car that sparked a lot of interest so I say good on you Huyndai for making a quirky little 3 door hatch (or is that 4 door) hot.....

[cbrmale]

The Australian version of the VT handles pretty neatly thanks to stiffer springs, re-calibrated dampers and complimented by a quicker steering rack with less power assistance. My previous car was a German hot hatch and on smooth roads my VT has about 90% of the roadholding of that car, and I put most of the difference down to Hankook versus Continental tyres. A limited slip diff is a stupid thing for a front wheel drive 'cause when it locks it will cause massive understeer. What the Veloster needs is the clever electronic diffs of some other German cars, but if you want one of those then buy a German car and stop whining! And if you do buy a German hot hatch like I had you will have to put up with the bone-jarring ride, unreliability, high service costs and poor resale value (caused by high service costs and unreliability).

My hot hatch didn't have a limited slip diff, few front wheel drives would go there, but it did have traction control.

[only1db]

i'm in the same boat with diane and mtd...they can call it what they want...but if does not match up...

I too think Hyundai missed the mark "a little" they have everything to "make it" a hot hatch...but without an lsd and independent rear suspension...it falls short. Hell even the color choices fall short. Not to steal Clarkson's thunder here, but I agree that a hot hatch needs to grab your attention...aka the ST focus with the tangerine orange color!...It kinda needs to be outrageous. It is almost there, but not quite.

[GreyGhost12]

A limited slip diff is a stupid thing for a front wheel drive 'cause when it locks it will cause massive understeer.

I'm sorry... But what planet are you from? I've driven several FWD vehicles with LSD and have NEVER had them "lock up" as you say. And believe me, I know how to put a car through it's paces and push it to it's limit and beyond and have NEVER had an LSD "lock up" on me.

The advantages of LSD with a high power FWD car will FAR outweigh a TCS, period.

Please share your instances and vehicles this has happened to with you.

[dianebrat]

i'm in the same boat with diane and mtd...they can call it what they want...but if does not match up...

I too think Hyundai missed the mark "a little" they have everything to "make it" a hot hatch...but without an lsd and independent rear suspension...it falls short. Hell even the color choices fall short. Not to steal Clarkson's thunder here, but I agree that a hot hatch needs to grab your attention...aka the ST focus with the tangerine orange color!...It kinda needs to be outrageous. It is almost there, but not quite.

I'm still surprised they got rid of the fantastic colors that POP like yellow and green for 2013.

Imagine a yellow VT with a few more HP, m/t, LSD, and independent rear suspension, that would be a "Hot Hatch" to beat.

[elecblue06]

why is the sam hell are you guys so hard up on the independent rear suspension?

[tidybowl]

because it really sucks when you hit a bump in the road and your car attempts to compete in the lastest season of So You Think you Can Dance

[GreyGhost12]

because it really sucks when you hit a bump in the road and your car attempts to compete in the lastest season of So You Think you Can Dance

LOL!! Thanks for that bit of a chuckle as I was in dire need of it today!

It's not that it's torsion beam rear end... It's the angle of the shocks that fouls everything up! I've been saying this for almost a year now, I think. The arcs of motion of the spring and shock should be within "so many degrees" of each other. What that exact spec is I don't have in front of me... But when you have the spring going one direction and the shock going in a reverse inclined arc, a springboard effect will always happen due to the incorrect geometry of things...

[MTD]

Yawn

[elecblue06]

because it really sucks when you hit a bump in the road and your car attempts to compete in the lastest season of So You Think you Can Dance

that has nothing to do with the fact that it's a torsion rear.... MANY cars have a torsion rear.. and handle just fine.. if it was because of the torsion rear, then cars that are lowered would still be experiencing the same issues people do stock.. The problem for the rear is improper dampening and spring rate in the rear. I feel like I'm a broken record here but if people keep asking for a IRS I"ll keep repeating myself the fastest FWD production car around the 'ring runs a torsion rear......

and alot of cars run IRS and suck ass for handling... keep wishing for the IRS a piss poor IRS setup to the quality of the current torsion the car will still handle like ****

[tidybowl]

my car is lowered and it still jumps around when it hits bumps. i know all about the Cobalt, but just because something works for one car does not mean its the greatest. look at Porsche they have a great history of producing extremely fast and great handling cars. they also have the engine hanging off the back of the axle. not the best set up at all. but it works great for them. in fact does any other performance car company even attempt this set up?