Wanted to put this argument to rest once and for all!

[elecblue06]

my car is lowered and it still jumps around when it hits bumps. i know all about the Cobalt, but just because something works for one car does not mean its the greatest. look at Porsche they have a great history of producing extremely fast and great handling cars. they also have the engine hanging off the back of the axle. not the best set up at all. but it works great for them. in fact does any other performance car company even attempt this set up?

exactly why we don't need an IRS

[tidybowl]

exactly why we don't need an IRS

or exactly why we do.

[cbrmale]

My previous German Opel hot hatch did not have a limited slip diff and it had a torsion beam rear axle, as does the current Polo GTI. If there is a problem with the rear end of US Velosters is down to inadequate damping, but that's not an issue with Australian Velosters because of firmer springs and dampers. Hyundai and many other car makers re-tune their cars softer for the US market because it seems that's how American drivers like them.

I once had a 2.4 litre Nissan Bluebird front wheel drive with a limited slip diff, and when it struggled for traction it almost understeered off the road, which is what you would expect. That's why Ford and Volkswagen and others have fitted variations of traction control rather than a crude lsd; the current Golf brakes the spinning wheel and re-directs a small amount of power to the non-spinning wheel. My Opel had the same thing. In extreme it throttled total power down.

I go back to my original point: if you want a Golf GTI then buy one. And watch it get towed to the dealer when it breaks down, as it will. Or pay for four hours labour to change a headlight globe (flat rate - four hours for the job). If you don't want to pay $500 for a new headlight globe or spend half a day doing it yourself, buy a Hyundai which is softer to drive but still quite competent (at least with Australian or European spec suspension).

[Turbonium]

For some reason i feel better about owning an NA V after reading this thread......

[elecblue06]

or exactly why we do.

... the torsion is not the problem man .... it's the shock/ strut which would probably stay the same

[MTD]

Adding IRS or an LSD isnt going to automatically make the car any better. If anything, they will add cost and weight, two things that the VT does better then its competition.

Those MT pics are interesting. I dont see the performance of the cars being compared, but HP, interior room, etc.

A loaded GTI or ST here in Canada is pushing $40K. Sure they will perform much better then the VT, but for that kind of money, Im buying a WRX or another Genesis to drive on the odd days of the week.

I think the Fiesta ST will be a much closer rival to the VT then any of the others.

I also find it interesting that the few owners of the VT and even the V who have tracked the cars dont really complain about them and what they lack.

The test drive tire kickers, keyboard warriors and trolls sure do though.

[BluMeanie]

What the Veloster needs is the clever electronic diffs of some other German cars,

Having DRIVEN one of those German cars with an "E-Diff" in an Autocross-ey typee situation, I have to disagree with you.

There is only JUST so much available traction for cornering and acceleration, and when the same end of the car is attempting BOTH jobs simultaneously..... if you are already at/near the limit of what the car can manage and start spinning the inside tire, the computer's sudden "E-diff application" usually results in the opposite of "snap oversteer" - that is, sudden, uncontrollable understeer, and you wipe-out a cone-wall.....

E-Diffs SUCK.

Give me a REAL LSD any day, and twice on Tuesday's for a Twofer.

[GreyGhost12]

Yawn

Ditto that... Yawn X2

[cbrmale]

Having DRIVEN one of those German cars with an "E-Diff" in an Autocross-ey typee situation, I have to disagree with you.

There is only JUST so much available traction for cornering and acceleration, and when the same end of the car is attempting BOTH jobs simultaneously..... if you are already at/near the limit of what the car can manage and start spinning the inside tire, the computer's sudden "E-diff application" usually results in the opposite of "snap oversteer" - that is, sudden, uncontrollable understeer, and you wipe-out a cone-wall.....

E-Diffs SUCK.

Give me a REAL LSD any day, and twice on Tuesday's for a Twofer.

Seeing as I owned a front wheel drive for six years with a torque-vectoring diff (correct term) and I drove it for 94,000km in all weather conditions, I should know how it behaved. I also owned an earlier front wheel drive with a limited slip diff for six years and 105,000km and I know how it behaved. The electronic torque-vectoring diff did not understeer when it took charge, ever, the lsd did. The LSD was terrible! With a torque vectoring diff, the amount of torque re-directed is related to steering angle, so if straight ahead it will put a lot of power to the non-drive wheel, if locked over it will brake the spinning wheel and put little power to the non-drive wheel (because this will cause understeer). And this is what it did, and you felt it throttling the engine back when braking the spinning wheel wasn't sufficient to regain traction.

What my Veloster has done for me is spin the inside wheel in the wet when I accelerated briskly when turning at an intersection, and it felt crude compared to the German car I had previously. But that's really not a major issue for me because it does many things better than that German car.

Still get back to my original point. If you really, really, really want a hot hatch with limited slip diff (is one made?) then buy one. I don't know if any manufacturer would put a crude lsd on a proper hot hatch anyway.

[GreyGhost12]

E-Diffs SUCK.

Give me a REAL LSD any day, and twice on Tuesday's for a Twofer.

I have to agree with this. A fine example of this is an ITR with its helical gear LSD. No clutches to wear out or slip. No e-gizmos to go berzerk and quickly put an end to an otherwise amazingly spirited drive.

I have this LSD in my "other car" and would NEVER be without it when whp levels are above 200. Many enthusiasts swear by a Quaife but the OEM helic gear LSD I have is simply amazing at controllling the front wheels at moderate throttle angle. However, it doesn't work so well at WOT since I can spin the tires well into 4th gear if I put my foot to the wood...

But all in all the handling improvement (under throttle) with the LSD as compared to an open diff are night and day in my book.

[BluMeanie]

Seeing as I owned a front wheel drive for six years with a torque-vectoring diff (correct term) and I drove it for 94,000km in all weather conditions, I should know how it behaved. I also owned an earlier front wheel drive with a limited slip diff for six years and 105,000km and I know how it behaved. The electronic torque-vectoring diff did not understeer when it took charge, ever, the lsd did. The LSD was terrible! With a torque vectoring diff, the amount of torque re-directed is related to steering angle, so if straight ahead it will put a lot of power to the non-drive wheel, if locked over it will brake the spinning wheel and put little power to the non-drive wheel (because this will cause understeer). And this is what it did, and you felt it throttling the engine back when braking the spinning wheel wasn't sufficient to regain traction.

What my Veloster has done for me is spin the inside wheel in the wet when I accelerated briskly when turning at an intersection, and it felt crude compared to the German car I had previously. But that's really not a major issue for me because it does many things better than that German car.

Still get back to my original point. If you really, really, really want a hot hatch with limited slip diff (is one made?) then buy one. I don't know if any manufacturer would put a crude lsd on a proper hot hatch anyway.

Audi's "Torque Vectoring Differential" is NOT an "Electronic-Differential" (correct technical term). It is an electronically-controlled arrangement of clutches in the final drive that locks and unlocks according to commands from the ECU.

E-Diffs are essentially cobbled-in code alongside the Traction and Stability-control programs, that grab an electronic-fistful of brake via the ABS system at the most-inopportune time possible in the middle of a spirited drive.

Just so we're clear here:

E-Diffs SUCK.

And that is exactly what you're going to get with a pricepoint car, if they do not install a mechanical diff.

[cbrmale]

Who said I owned an Audi? It was an Opel and it had pretty decent handling.

In any case you need an attitude transplant. I owned a car which included braking the spinning wheel as well as transferring load to the non-spinning wheel and it drove brilliantly, especially in slippery conditions. I am a proper driver who also rides and used to race motorcyles, and I also do testing (but not racing) of racing cars on racing circuits. Probably I have the smoothness and control honed by real fair-dinkum racing and rarely provoke wheelspinning loss of traction, which is just a sign of clumsy driving.

What is it with you and limited slip diffs anyway? If I approached racing car setup with the answer (lsd) I would never get anywhere! It's approached with 'what's the problem' and 'the possible solution is....'.

These diffs prevent loss of traction and eliminate the understeer that would otherwise occur with a crude mechanical limited slip diff on a front wheel drive.

Go back from whence you came 'cause everyone is bored with your attitude. The Veloster is %^&* because it doesn't have an LSD! We have other and more important priorities.

[tidybowl]

It's funny that both the Astra OPC and Corsa OPC nurbugring use mechanical LSD's.


Sent from my iPhone using AutoGuide.com Free App

[GreyGhost12]

It's funny that both the Astra OPC and Corsa OPC nurbugring use mechanical LSD's.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh wait... Was that really funny?? Or just ironic??

[cbrmale]

Autocar road test of the Astra VXR (Vauxhall badged OPC) released in May this year with a Drexler LSD:

Any drawbacks to the Astra hot hatch?

Sadly, yes. That aggressive limited-slip diff causes an awful lot of torque steer, to the point where it inhibits confidence during overtakes on B-roads – you worry that you’ll be pulled towards either the car you’re overtaking or dragged into the scenery.

It doesn't seem to work terribly well. That's hilarious, aint it?

[DeMarioii]

My whole point is every thread I have interest in the argument of the majority of the people that don't understand the complaint ends up coming down to that Hyundai's intent for the car was not a hot hatch. Everytime I post that they were originally aiming for that market, I get and I quote "Hyundai has never said that." In reality they have said it over and over and over. Hyundais intent was the hot hatch market, and when people complain about no LSD, a suspect suspension, and other items on the car, stepping in and saying the car was not intended to be so is absolutely not true. It is like they feel obligated to defend the car, claiming the car is "still a great car". Yes the car is decent, but the minute you try to get into it, pull, or canyon carve the car is skittish at best and when compared to the GTI, ST, MS3, Mini Cooper S (in the same market category that Hyundai was aiming) it becomes a very bad car in comparison.

Now does the intention mean it actually is one, no. The car was intended to be a hot hatch and compete in that market, attracting a piece of the fastest growing sports segment in the auto industry. But Hyundai missed the mark.

I just get tired of the, "but this car was not intended to be that" argument, when in reality it was!AS FOR THE NA V COMMENT, this is not in the NA V section, in no way shape or form would I consider that car sporty minus the looks. That comment is like a rabbit driver walking in on a GTI conversation and going, my car looks sporty but isn't a hot hatch. No your car is an attractive people mover.............and not even the subject of the conversation!

TO GREY GHOST - Thank you, you made my point much more elegantly than I did! And as far as power, I can get the car to go (a little elbow grease and the want to, a bigger turbo, and it will go)....I just need something to start with. Hyundai's version of R-Spec is something else I had an issue with, but I got one anyhow *dunno*. I just ended up giving in and buying the car, even though I think they could have done more to give it a real reason for have the R-Spec label.

LOL, so sack up with your "money in hand" go get a NA V base, used or new. Get a new engine, tranny, huge turbo, custom ECU, and have what you want... but i think i'm already ahead of you?.

[BluMeanie]

Who said I owned an Audi? It was an Opel and it had pretty decent handling.

In any case you need an attitude transplant. I owned a car which included braking the spinning wheel as well as transferring load to the non-spinning wheel and it drove brilliantly, especially in slippery conditions. I am a proper driver who also rides and used to race motorcyles, and I also do testing (but not racing) of racing cars on racing circuits. Probably I have the smoothness and control honed by real fair-dinkum racing and rarely provoke wheelspinning loss of traction, which is just a sign of clumsy driving.

What is it with you and limited slip diffs anyway? If I approached racing car setup with the answer (lsd) I would never get anywhere! It's approached with 'what's the problem' and 'the possible solution is....'.

These diffs prevent loss of traction and eliminate the understeer that would otherwise occur with a crude mechanical limited slip diff on a front wheel drive.

Go back from whence you came 'cause everyone is bored with your attitude. The Veloster is %^&* because it doesn't have an LSD! We have other and more important priorities.

Wow, you SERIOUSLY need to pull that broomstick out of your arse, friend. It is making you crotchety.

I merely noted that I disagreed with you, and expressed my opinion about E-Diffs, I didn't daterape then glass your Mother.

What is with YOU about the LSD? Bad flashback?

You might note that, this is only my THIRD post on this subject (with the bulk of those having to deal with YOU), and Final post replying to anything you have to say: consider yourself Blacked Out.

Good Day, Sir.

[cbrmale]

You don't know the difference between electronic control of the diff (braking the spinning wheel and throttling back the engine) with torque vectoring (transferring a proportion of the torque to the unladen wheel variable on steering lock - used by many manufacturers but primarily a Japanese thing). Torque vectoring also includes braking the spinning wheel and throttling back the engine.

I once owned a front wheel drive with a limited slip diff and it was terrible. Very bad understeer under marginal traction, as you would expect. This was in the days before electronic control of the diff or torque vectoring was available, so it was the best they could do at the time. But it was dreadful.

[cubancaddy]

My whole point is every thread I have interest in the argument of the majority of the people that don't understand the complaint ends up coming down to that Hyundai's intent for the car was not a hot hatch. Everytime I post that they were originally aiming for that market, I get and I quote "Hyundai has never said that." In reality they have said it over and over and over. Hyundais intent was the hot hatch market, and when people complain about no LSD, a suspect suspension, and other items on the car, stepping in and saying the car was not intended to be so is absolutely not true. It is like they feel obligated to defend the car, claiming the car is "still a great car". Yes the car is decent, but the minute you try to get into it, pull, or canyon carve the car is skittish at best and when compared to the GTI, ST, MS3, Mini Cooper S (in the same market category that Hyundai was aiming) it becomes a very bad car in comparison.

Now does the intention mean it actually is one, no. The car was intended to be a hot hatch and compete in that market, attracting a piece of the fastest growing sports segment in the auto industry. But Hyundai missed the mark.

I just get tired of the, "but this car was not intended to be that" argument, when in reality it was!AS FOR THE NA V COMMENT, this is not in the NA V section, in no way shape or form would I consider that car sporty minus the looks. That comment is like a rabbit driver walking in on a GTI conversation and going, my car looks sporty but isn't a hot hatch. No your car is an attractive people mover.............and not even the subject of the conversation!

TO GREY GHOST - Thank you, you made my point much more elegantly than I did! And as far as power, I can get the car to go (a little elbow grease and the want to, a bigger turbo, and it will go)....I just need something to start with. Hyundai's version of R-Spec is something else I had an issue with, but I got one anyhow *dunno*. I just ended up giving in and buying the car, even though I think they could have done more to give it a real reason for have the R-Spec label.

A lot of people bought this car for the fuel economy (if you chose not to step on the gas). It also has enough zip to get through traffic and it looks great. Isn't that enough? It's not going to beat a WRX, but it's faster than a mini S.. and it has more room in the back.. This car makes sense if you are looking for the aforementioned traits. I don't want a car that will out drag a speed 3 in the quarter mile, I want 30mpg.. I find it funny how many people come in this forum to say bad things about the VT lol.. it's a great car. That's another beauty about the thing, it's polarizing. Even the people that don't like it feel obligated to say something.

[DeMarioii]

AS FOR THE NA V COMMENT, this is not in the NA V section, in no way shape or form would I consider that car sporty minus the looks. That comment is like a rabbit driver walking in on a GTI conversation and going, my car looks sporty but isn't a hot hatch. No your car is an attractive people mover.............and not even the subject of the conversation!

-Implying you have a different engine
-Implying me downsizing a super charger or turbo on my NA wouldn't be faster.
-Implying the turbo is that much faster.